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EffZeeOne
13 Posts |
 Posted - 10 août 2006 : 22:01:36
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Unfortunately, I think the appliances are already winning or even have won. Honestly, I don't know of a single long-time PDA nav app user (regardless of which one they chose) who is still using their PDA as their sole or primary navigation system. Most people have them built-in to their cars or have purchased one of the many all-in-one offerings that are available now (not just a model from the "juggernaut").
Part of the reason for the increase in appliances is the increase of Joe Average customers looking at GPS/nav solutions versus techno geeks. The complication of bluetooth pairing, maintaining a reliable connection, recharging both devices, and getting the software to work with your hardware makes the PDA add-on solutions less desireable and the all-in-one devices very appealing. Most of the hardware companies offer fewer direct wired solutions now and have moved on to address the technogeek's craving for "wireless", "bluetooth", etc. Also, most of Joe Average consumers who do own a PDA have enough trouble just getting it to sync with their Outlook, and do not want to risk the investment of adding GPS hardware to a handheld they already deem unreliable. PDAs are still for technogeeks more than the rest of the world.
Not to mention that PDAs-in-general seem to be a dying market, as the trend goes more toward convergence devices, smartphones, etc. Just a year ago when people would see my Palm Tungsten|C, they would say something like, "Cool mini-computer -- what exactly is that?". Now I get, "Oh, you have a Blackberry..." and that's from a Joe Average type of person. They know what a smartphone is, most of them have phones that play videos, mp3s, text message, snap photos, and even offer basic GPS navigation out of the box.
Then you also have to consider that these all-in-one appliance GPS solutions are becoming convergence devices themselves. The latest offering from the "juggernaut" has a 30gb hard drive, plays movies, MP3s, photos, serves as a photo dump for your digicam, serves as an iPod dump, handsfree phone solution, weather, traffic (via free FM radio where available), and, oh yeah, it also has a pretty good GPS/Navigation function. ;)
Given these trends, it might be wise for Mapopolis to partner itself with a hardware manufacture (perhaps one of these WinCE based GPS types), and put out their own appliance. Definitely something to consider, if it hasn't already been.
@Lamar: I don't really understand the comment about the "juggernaut's" 3-D mode. However, I have to say that I like the way it handles if you go off route. It snaps to the nearest road it can find (as long as you're not too far away from a road), recalculates your route, or annoys you until you make a u-turn to get back on route. What more could you ask for? I like the feature where it snaps to the nearest road if you should go off route, because that's very useful when driving through very new construction where a road was shifted over, a traffic circle was installed, etc. -- it keeps you on the same road regardless of the new construction that the map may not display. |
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MagMashr
25 Posts |
Posted - 10 août 2006 : 22:19:11
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| I think there will always be a market for PDA software for casual users who don't want to shell out $700 if they might only use it sparingly. My wife has a Magellan Roadmate 700 in her car, but I am more than happy with a PDA that has the capability of being a Nav system if I need it. |
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JakeRich
USA
584 Posts |
Posted - 10 août 2006 : 23:15:02
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quote:
Originally posted by EffZeeOne
Unfortunately, I think the appliances are already winning or even have won. Honestly, I don't know of a single long-time PDA nav app user (regardless of which one they chose) who is still using their PDA as their sole or primary navigation system. Most people have them built-in to their cars or have purchased one of the many all-in-one offerings that are available now (not just a model from the "juggernaut").
...CLIP
Oh, yes you do know of a single long-time PDA nav app user (regardless of which one they chose) who is still using their PDA as their sole or primary navigation system. Me. I won't buy (or pay for) a built-in system because it is more expensive and not as flexible as my PDA solution. If they throw it in as a standard option, so that I can't opt out, then I may let it sit there, but as soon as the maps are out of date, back comes the PDA and the easy-to-update licensing. (Cheaper, too.) |
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Lizard_weasel
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - 10 août 2006 : 23:25:18
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| Myself as well. The only reason I'd have an in-car solution is for my wife. I personally will always carry a PDA as long as it is still available. |
Steve
Garmin Nuvi 750, 3760LTM and Zumo 660.
Formerly Nuvi 350 and Axim x51v with Mapopolis and bluetooth receiver. |
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deichenlaub
USA
127 Posts |
Posted - 11 août 2006 : 02:58:03
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| I thought the comments were about "all-in-one" systems, which a user can put in any car (including a rental). Auto manufacturers are already finding that built-in electronics have limited usefulness to people. Instead of including iPod functions in the radio, they are including iPod interfaces. People want to keep their electronics with them. I think the very expensive built-in nav system with dead-reconing input have already peaked. But I have been wrong before. I might be wrong this time. That's what makes life so interesting. |
HP iPAQ 2490 / WM5 / Mapopolis / GlobalSAT BC-337 (Holux CF GPS) |
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JakeRich
USA
584 Posts |
Posted - 11 août 2006 : 03:19:52
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deichelaub, Re-read EffZeeOne's post. He specifically said "built-in" in his comments. I'm not enthused about the All-in-Ones, either. An AIO unit is more expensive and single purpose. I can't use my PDA for anything else while driving, so why not as a GPS. An AIO is simply too specialized. I do see convergence with these devices and the music players, but I don't really want to lug around an AIO instead of my non-existant Ipod--too big.
As for the built-ins...there will be a market for them. The folks who don't know diddly about GPS will pay for the bells-n-whistles even if they never use it, just to have the screen there to impress their friends. And I'll reserve the right to laugh at them when I see them! |
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EffZeeOne
13 Posts |
Posted - 12 août 2006 : 06:55:51
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@JakeRich: Actually, I do not know you. I guess I should emphasize that none of the PDA/GPS uses I *PERSONALLY* know (which used to be quite a few) are still using a PDA based solution.
Also, what I said was, "Most people have them built-in to their cars or have purchased one of the many all-in-one offerings that are available now (not just a model from the "juggernaut")." So I was actually referring to both the built-ins and AIO units. Combined I believe both of those GPS options currently, and will always, exponentially outnumber the PDA based GPS systems. For every techie person here who is willing to tolerate things clipped to their AC vents with wires running all over the place, worrying about bluetooth connectivity, etc., there are dozens (hundreds, thousands, etc.) of people who are more than happy with their clean, built-in nav system in their car that they're paying $5 per month for the life of their car loan). Frankly, the AIO units are still more techie toys than something Joe Average would buy, but I would also like to point out that you can get a well-featured AIO unit in the mid to high US$300 range now, and they are becoming a popular solution for people who still don't want to pay $1,500 extra on their car loan. My 65-year-old father just purchased one after asking me how difficult would it be to turn his Tungsten|E into a GPS/Nav solution. After telling him what he would need to do, he decided to just buy an AIO -- which is a route I think the vast majority of people would take under the same circumstances and facing the same options/choices.
The PDA/GPS industry needs to face it -- built-in and AIO nav solutions are not outrageously expensive anymore. With new PDA's still costing $300-500, you can get a really nice AIO nav solution in that same price range. Also, most people buying PDAs these days are not using them for calendars and address books -- they want to watch videos, play MP3s, view photos, use it as a USB memory card, etc, all of which can be done with most (likely all) AIO nav units now, and quite a few of these new AIO's are not that much bigger than a Palm LifeDrive.
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JakeRich
USA
584 Posts |
Posted - 12 août 2006 : 17:24:19
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@EffZeeOne, it's a small point but actually you didn't say "know," you said "know of" and that was wrong. You know of me, so you know of someone who is in that category. :-)
As for AIOs, I only know of one that can do MP3s and none that do videos, so the "most (likely all)" could be a slight overstatement. In the future, with convergence, that statement could be the case. However, right now I have a unit that does all that in my PDA and with a cradle with a built in GPS and power supply from Seidio, I have ONE cable to power that. An after market AIO will have one cable as well, so I don't have "wires running all over the place."
But our differences of opinions are ok. What you want and what I want are two different things. That's why there are different solutions in the marketspace. I happen to be in the market for a car right now and on my scorecard a built-in GPS that is not removable (i.e., standard equipment) and for which I must pay is a negative on that list. Ditto built in cell phones or Ipod sockes for my non-existant Ipod. I won't buy a car where that stuff is "standard" because I know that they have padded the cost far beyond what I can get that is much more usable and flexible. |
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EffZeeOne
13 Posts |
Posted - 14 août 2006 : 00:17:39
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@JakeRich: ACTUALLY...I didn't even "know of" you until you posted a response to this thread, so although I did feel the need to clarify my previous statement, I still stand by the original wording and only changed it because it seemed to be confusing some other posters here. Pick nit...nit pick...haha ;)
As for the AIO's playing MP3's and videos, I know of quite a few that can: The entire TomTom line (including the X00's and X10's and the One), I believe a couple of Garmin models do, and then every WindowsCE based AIO can since they are nothing more than a HandheldPC/PocketPC with that operating system.
Most people using a Palm solution are using Bluetooth since most of the wired GPS solutions are no longer offered for the relatively new Palm MultiConnector. Wired solutions for Palm were more popular back in the Palm Universal Connector days, but alas, those days are gone as of about 5 Palm models ago. With most of those people using Bluetooth receivers, unless you're only using your Palm/GPS for about 3 or 4 hours, then you're going to need to charge them, and that means at least two cables, if not even three (one to the DC source) depending on the design of your Y cable, etc.
Although you mention cradle type solutions, those are very few and far between and expensive (at least in the USA). By the time you're done buying a Palm and a cradle GPS, you're very much into the price of a new, late model AIO.
If nothing else, you and I agree on the OEM dash GPS systems in cars. I don't want one and never have, and found the AIO solution I purchased to be a much better solution than an in-dash unit. I just also find the AIO solution better than my previous Palm solution, too, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one! ;)
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lamar@mapopolis.com
USA
2508 Posts |
Posted - 14 août 2006 : 15:55:34
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Hi, guys,
Well, I can tell you what we're hearing about in Support these days. Not in any particular order, but the Motorola Q, the 700p, the Mio A701, the LifeDrive and the TX, the HP hw65xx, and the Pocket Loox N560, which is a pretty impressive PPC/GPS that we won't get in America. I have a feeling that Moto is going to sell a LOT of Qs, and I'm surprised how many folks are getting the A701, too.
We welcome converged devices that have a full PPC (Win CE) build. We experimented with supporting several different Win CE types, but we found that the manufacturers (probably for cost reasons) were not providing a full build of the OS - just enough for their device to function as some kind of minimal navigation unit that was otherwise pretty dumb. I was actually asking folks who inquired whether their Win CE devices had Internet Explorer and/or the presence of one particular file on the device before we'd even TRY the Win CE version.
Things are better now.
I also don't want an in-dash GPS solution. Progress in this business is so fast that the thing will be obsolete before the payments are finished.
We are also looking forward to the UMPCs. Word is that we WILL be doing a PC version for the tablet version. 7-inch touch screens, anybody? :)
And this is just conjecture, but I think we'll only be using on-board maps for a few more years. The proliferation of high-speed networks for mobile devices will make it possible to connect directly to the NAVTEQ servers (or our own servers) and to have maps that are always as updated as Mapquest or Yahooo! Maps. And that may be further out there than I'm guessing. It may be cost-prohibitive, too, as neither sever throughput or data is cheap.
I use my handhelds for other purposes, of course. My LifeDrive is for filling in idle minutes. I use it for reading the news, showing off movie trailers or watching a movie I grabbed from a DVD, reading eBooks and playing an occasional game of Solitaire. I used to use it as an expensive, big iPod, but then I got XM radio and lost interest in that.
If my LifeDrive had a SiRF III GPS built into it, that would be great, in my opinion. Likewise, it would be a good addition to my Dell X50v.
I also have noticed that the one thing that's not keeping up with mHz, telephony, dual wireless, built-in GPS devices, etc. is battery size. So while these converged devices are great fun, there's no avoiding the wires. Plug it in, plug it in. :-)
Lamar |
Airstream travel trailers are round on both ends. |
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JakeRich
USA
584 Posts |
Posted - 14 août 2006 : 17:28:56
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| Lamar, you hit the Achilles' heel of converged devices--battery life. My BT GPS receiver will work for 30 hours, 300 in standby (iBlue), my cell phone will run for days on one charge. My Axim will only "run" a few hours, but I don't leave it on all the time and the battery still serves me well. But if you converge those devices into one, then the battery becomes the critically weak link. With my three devices, I can have (and have had) my cell phone go dead and still have PDA and GPS, I can have (and have had) my GPS go dead and still have PDA and Cell phone and I can have (and have had) my PDA battery die and still have cell phone. But in a converged device, when the battery is gone you lose them all. |
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lbendlin
USA
482 Posts |
Posted - 14 août 2006 : 18:27:35
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I have recently changed to an iPAQ 6828 (from my old trusty 6315). This is a new class of devices, and I am not surprised that the (only slightly bigger) A701 sells so good. These devices are smaller than most "regular" cell phones, and (as much as I dislike WM5) they show that one hand operation is possible on a Pocket PC, without using the stylus. I am sure that with WM6 there will be no more separation between WM Pocket PC and WM Smartphone, they will have converged into one platform.
Battery life is indeed a concern, albeit a small one. I am used to carry a spare battery, under all circumstances. The 6828 lasts for about a day and a half of medium heavy usage. Not as good as the 6315, but still acceptable. |
Lutz |
Edited by - lbendlin on 14 août 2006 18:28:37 |
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EffZeeOne
13 Posts |
Posted - 15 août 2006 : 01:59:12
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You have also mentioned an even more significant Achilles' heel with Palm devices -- no user replaceable batteries! That makes the PocketPC and WinCE devices all the more attractive, especially when most of those have the option of a higher capacity battery.
The best PDA/GPS combination I've ever used (or seen since) was a Palm M500 with a Magellan GPS Companion sled. The sled operated on two AAA batteries and M500 wouldn't need charged for weeks (if not even over a month). Even if the screen was grayscale, if it was only a higher resolution it would still be a very useable device to this day. Basic PDA functions don't need a color screen, and even some internet functions (email, instant messaging, etc.) don't really require color. Sure, maps look better in color, but it's not really a requirement.
I might be tempted to go back to a PDA/GPS system if I ever jump to the PocketPC platform. However, I am done with the Palm/GPS combination for the above explained reasons. Again, though, I am a self-proclaimed technogeek, so I would, of course, love to try any new toy!
Good discussion -- good to see that Mapopolis is looking to the future, and it would definitely be nice to see a WinCE AIO come with Mapopolis on the ROM/hard drive! |
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dgkFL
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 18 août 2006 : 22:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by EffZeeOne
You have also mentioned an even more significant Achilles' heel with Palm devices -- no user replaceable batteries! That makes the PocketPC and WinCE devices all the more attractive, especially when most of those have the option of a higher capacity battery.
Treos have replaceable batteries.
A Treo with Mapopolis and a hardwired hands-free/GPS mount are a wonderful solution. Cost effective, convenient. Plunk the Treo into the mount and it recharges, is ready to make a phone call, and Mapopolis is a button press away. Only downsides are the small screen and the fact that you can't initiate a phone call with the GPS running.
The Treo's internet capability opens the potential for on-line maps and for traffic updates (Lamar: TomTom does the latter: I wish you guys would!)
David |
Now: Seidio serial mount/Seidio GPS mouse/Treo 650/ Navcard
Was: iTrek BT / Treo 650 / Mapopolis 2.3 |
Edited by - dgkFL on 18 août 2006 22:56:05 |
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EffZeeOne
13 Posts |
Posted - 18 août 2006 : 23:16:33
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There's also a Treo 700w, which is running Windows Mobile. Hmmm...replaceable batteries...Windows Mobile...hmmmm....why is this a "Palm" Treo again? ;)
I had a lot of battery problems when using my Palm(s) as a GPS. I don't think a Treo would have the same problems since you'll use it a lot more than a plain Palm device. I still use the heck out of my Palm devices, but not enough to really run the battery down enough for it to be recharged in a cradle every time I get in the car. What was happening to me was the battery would charge to 100%, and then after still sitting in the GPS cradle for a while (like a couple of hours), the charging circuit would turn off and my Palm battery would just slowly discharge over the next few hours. I'd realize what had happened only when the Palm would shutdown automatically due to low battery. This would happen every time on every long trip, and I was getting rather tired of having a dead Palm at the end of my trips. Again, the Treo probably wouldn't get to 100% so quickly and would also need to be recharged more frequently since it's a convergence device.
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