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gpspassion

93888 Posts

Posted - 26 janv. 2006 :  02:00:30  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
UPDATED 20090301

Mio A701 : 1. "synthetic" (SIF only) Warm Fix 2. "Mixed Fix" -> details

News Item on the portal
The idea behind "Offline AGPS" (or "AGPS over the internet") is straightforward but effective : instead of downloading the ephemeris data from the satellites, something that takes 30 seconds at best, requires a good signal level (>28 dB-Hz) and needs to be done every 4 hours, you download a 50kb ephemeris file valid for 3/7/10 days. Acquisition time in the morning goes down to 10 seconds from 40 seconds in good environments and remains at 20/30 seconds on average in challenging environments (coated windshield, dense urban environment) versus several minutes, if at all possible, without AGPS.

When you turn on your AGPS enabled GPS receiver, synthetic ephemeris data is used first and then there is a gradual switch to live ephemeris data as it becomes available (30 seconds in a perfect environment). Once live data has been downloaded it is valid for about 4 hours and it gets updated continually, but if you turn off your receiver for 4 hours, then you start from scratch again.

LIST OF COMPATIBLES DEVICES - December 5th, 2008
  • Globallocate's LTO :
    • GPS PDAPhones : HP hw6515 and HP hw6915 - GL20000 chipset

    • AIOs : TomTom ONE v3/v4, TomTom ONE XL v1/v2 - Hammerhead chipset - review

  • Nemerix's NeX : no systems so far


  • Qualcomm gpsOneXTRA (see PDF documentation) : 40Kb file valid for 7 days, provides for very fast warm TTFF, about 8 seconds with a good view of the sky and as low as 20 seconds in dense urban environments, as tested on the HTC TyTn II - see topic for more details.
    Also on Samsung i780, HTC Touch Cruise, HTC Touch Diamond


  • SiRF's SiRFInstantFix v1 :
    • GPS PDAs : Fujitsu N560

    • GPS PDAPhones : Asus P750, Eten G500/X500/X500+/X800/X600/X650/M700/M800/M810, HTC P3300/X7500, Mio A701/A501/A702

    • AIOs : Asus R300/R700, TomTom ONE v1/v2a, TomTom GO x10/x20/x20/x30/x40, Dash Express

  • MTK v2 (MTK 3329) company site : iBlue 747A+, Qstarz Q1000X, Qstarz Nano - Bluetooth GPS dataloggers

  • Skytraq AGPS : Wonderpoud BT100Y and BT760Y - Bluetooth GPS receivers - see this topic

  • uBlox AssistNow® Offline : no systems so far



Updated September 2007 : Skytraq AGPS available on Wondeproud Bluetooth receivers, more details >> here <<

Updated March 2007 : NemeriX launched NeX in February at 3GSM, more details >> below <<

Updated January 17th, 2007 : Nearly a year after SiRF, uBlox are also launching their "AGPS over the internet" solution, called AssistNow® Offline. In the same way as Globallocate's LTO and SIRF's SiRFinstantFix, the idea is to predict the orbit of the GPS satellites to speed up the time to first fix in the morning and in difficult environments (urban canyons, coated windshield, indoors, etc...). They're going one step further though with a lifespan of 14 days versus 10 for Globallocate and 7 for SiRF and there will be a free version and a premium version. uBlox chipsets are not currently used on consumer GPS systems, but their SuperSense enabled Antaris 4 will power Navigon's upcoming Porsche Design 9611 AIO.

Updated June 14th - SIF (SiRFInstantFix) that works wonders on the Mio A701 as Globallocate's LTO does on the HP hw6515 will also become available on the Eten G500 via a ROM upgrade (see below) during the summer. At the 3GSM show, Fujitsu also mentioned SIF for the Loox T830 announced for this summer as well. On the other hand, TomTom is still showing it as being "available soon" although the GO x10 series have been available for a couple of months now. Let's stay tuned for more...

Updated 05/23/2006
According to their website and based on testing of the shipping x10 series, TomTom has postponed the launch of QuickFix.

SIF is deployed on the Mio A701 GPSPDAPhone though, see the review for more details.


Updated 03/10

Yet another system applet ? No, because Quick Position lets you download the SiRF ephemeris data, and can remind you to update too


At the end of January, SiRF announced SiRFInstantFix (SIF), an AGPS over the internet solution to speed up the first time to fix and in some cases make it possible, like Globallocate's does on the HP hw6515. We now have some more information about it:
  • There is no planned upgrade path for existing SiRFstarIII based systems unfortunately

  • First PDAPhone with SIF: Mio A701 with "Quick Position"

  • First AIO with SIF: TomTom 510/710 and 910, with "QuickLocate"

  • The TomTom .ee file weighs about 57Kb for a 7 days lifespan

  • On the SiRF simulators at the 3GSM show, a "warm" fix took about 13 seconds with SIF vs 40 withough it.

  • Unlike Globallocate's solution that can get a fix without satellite time, SIF, needs at least one satellite in view with a decent level of signal (142dBm) to get the time. According to SiRF this is achievable in almost all environments.


  • I'm looking forward to the first live testing with either the Mio A701 or the new TomTom 910 to see how it improves the user experience as much as Globallocate's LTO on the 6515.


    [Updated 02/08
    Activity is clearly ramping up in the field of A-GPS over the internet with the recent announcement by u-Blox of their own solution. After Globallocate's LTO implemented on the HP hw6515 (see the full review), SiRF's announcement of SiRFInstantFix, this is the third A-GPS via the internet solution that relies on the prediction of ephemeris data to make the initial "fix" nearly instantaneous. This makes sense as live ephemeris downloading has now become the most time-consuming element (30 seconds) with powerful chipsets that can compute a fix very quickly once that hurdle has been overcome. The only consumer solution currently based on a uBlox chipset is Socket's V2 Bluetooth GPS.

    Posted 01/26
    Hot off the wire, SiRF have just announced the launch of SiRFInstantFix, a "unique service that minimizes the start-up wait time for GPS systems. SiRFInstantFix provides consumers with the ability to turn on their SiRF-based navigation devices and achieve the first fix in as fast as eight seconds...SiRFInstantFix eliminates the initial time-consuming task of obtaining precise GPS satellite location data -- ephemerides -- from the satellites themselves. Instead, the SiRFInstantFix server uses a sophisticated set of proprietary algorithms to predict seven days of ephemerides and distills them down to a small file which SiRF-based navigation systems can use to pinpoint every GPS satellite".

    Not that it's related, but it seems my wish of seeing a GPS solution combining the power of SiRFstarIII (tracking down to 14dBhz or -159dBm) and the LTO (Long Term Orbit) technology of Globallocate (website), first used on a consumer device on the HP hw6515, to overcome the physical requirement of a minimum and uninterrupted signal level from the satellite of 28dBhz to download ephemeris data, is about to come true. Great news for the end user, although one has to wonder how SiRFInstantFix will play along with Globallocate's LTO/"Extended Ephemeris" patents that seem to cover this field. The PR does not mention any cooperation between the two companies.

    According to the PR, SiRFInstantFix is "available now", but it is not clear if and which current SiRFstarIII based devices can benefit from it or whether an upgrade will be required or available.

    Here is a real life example of the impact of using stored ephemeris data, the other day I couldn't get a fix with my SS3 based RBT-2010 waiting for my plane to take off to update my position on my tracking server because my ephemeris data was outdated (> 5 hours) and the signal level was below 28dBhz, meaning no fresh ephemeris data download, so I took out my 6515 and it was able to get a fix thanks to the data stored in its memory. What's appealing with SiRFIII is that it can track down to 14dBhz while I haven't seen the 6515 go below 22/23 dBhz.


    On the left the SiRFstarIII RBT-2010 sees 11 satellites but signal level is too low to download ephemerides, so no fix
    On the right the Globallocate 6515 sees fewer satellites but relied on its stored ephemeris data to get a fix
    Reported dBhz levels can vary but tests done within a few seconds

    We'll have to see how low a SiRFIII GPS can get a fix with SiRFInstantFix, probably won't be as low as 14dBhz, but it's bound to be a massive improvement compared with the current 28dBhz, even if it's say 20dBhz that would mean getting a fix with signal that is 6 times weaker.

    Questions, comments ?
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    rancho1

    354 Posts

    Posted - 26 janv. 2006 :  02:54:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    It says you need to connect to "InstantFix Servers" to download the files.
    So, your GPS device has to have internet access and rely on access to servers that need to be maintained by a third party and may go up and down periodically? And they plan to provide these servers forever for free?
    Is the data for all gps satellites in North America and Europe going to be available in these downloaded files?

    Edited by - rancho1 on 26 janv. 2006 02:58:25
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    gpspassion

    93888 Posts

    Posted - 26 janv. 2006 :  03:08:58  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    Well the good thing about the ephemeris data is that it is the same worldwide and yes you would have to download that data onto your GPS as HP hw6515 owners already via QuickConnect by connecting to Globallocate's servers.

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    rancho1

    354 Posts

    Posted - 26 janv. 2006 :  06:37:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    Having to manually download files from their servers and then install them on the GPS weekly is clunky and not user-friendly. It will be a turn-off for people wanting a seamless experience.
    Too bad it cannot automatically download and save the info into ROM directly from the satellites.
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    gpspassion

    93888 Posts

    Posted - 26 janv. 2006 :  09:59:09  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    Well that's what it does for live ephemeris data, you mean have the satellites send the 7 day predictions ? That wouldn't be possible as the transmit speed is very slow at 50bps.

    It depends on the device of course, with a PDAPhone like the 6515 it's really easy and even with a PDA, just drop it on the cradle at night and it will likely sync automatically. Downloading that data is not a requirement for current GPS based SiRFstarIII receivers to work so people who enjoy the improved TTFF can use it and others can pass, but the ability to get a warm/cold fix almost anywhere should make it worthwhile in my opinion, see the example I added above.
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    Sam Ontario

    USA
    169 Posts

    Posted - 27 janv. 2006 :  15:10:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    How about with PDA maintained on and put into the AC charger with GPS Receiver on all the time at the window, thereby, the GPS signal is updated all the time. We, therefore, don't need the SiRFInstantFix.

    However, just a thought over my head, it will be nice if there is a programme/software within a GPS navigation software to calculate the locations/orbits of all satellites with respect to the PDA present time and the last time tracked satellite locations. When the PDA is switch on or the navigation application is activated, the appropriate satellites are tracked immediately (say within a few seconds) and received updated signals thereby reducing the cold fixing time. Is it feasible?

    Sam
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    gpspassion

    93888 Posts

    Posted - 27 janv. 2006 :  15:21:16  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    Sure, if you keep your GPS on at all times it updates the ephemeris data in real time as fresh ones become available, i.e. every 30 minutes. The problem is that this rarely going to be the case. As to calculating the orbits locally, I don't know, but I suspect it might require quite a bit of processing power that is easier to deploy on a server, with the server then feeding the data to clients.

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    bteasley

    USA
    23 Posts

    Posted - 02 févr. 2006 :  05:32:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    Just felt like posting something...

    For the time being, this does not seem all that useful to all that many people. For true enthusiasts (anyone who uses gpspassion)it is interesting and there are some benefits. But as mentioned above, for most users it is not a seemless experience at the moment. For them it won't be worth the hassle.

    However, when a major player with a working network that provides internet access to a device gets this new service working (and the SIRF chips in their 'private labelled' devices)... then they'll have something for the masses.



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    gpspassion

    93888 Posts

    Posted - 08 févr. 2006 :  16:01:40  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    Activity is clearly ramping up in the field of A-GPS over the internet with the recent announcement by u-Blox of their own solution. After Globallocate's LTO implemented on the HP hw6515, SiRF's announcement of SiRFInstantFix, this is the third A-GPS via the internet solution that relies on the prediction of ephemeris data to make the initial "fix" nearly instantaneous. This makes sense as live ephemeris downloading has now become the most time-consuming element (30 seconds) with powerful chipsets that can compute a fix very quickly once that hurdle has been overcome. The only consumer solution currently based on a uBlox chipset is Socket's V2 Bluetooth GPS.


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    altden2002

    93 Posts

    Posted - 08 févr. 2006 :  22:28:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    The more the merrier, I say. :)

    I swear I have seen it somewhere that Globallocate and Sirf used to partner together - Globallocate was producing the quartz or some other timing thing that Sirf used. Now that I googe it I can't find it. Weird.

    At any rate I see an ugly lawsuit between Sirf and Globallocate in the future. Let's hope it does not turn into another RIM/NTP kind of ugly :(


    Edited by - altden2002 on 08 févr. 2006 22:32:06
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    gpspassion

    93888 Posts

    Posted - 08 févr. 2006 :  23:57:36  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    Dunno, if uBlox are coming out with their own solution, maybe they are considering this is a "public" concept, time will tell, I do hope legal issues don't prevent us from enjoying this breakthrough technology.

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    akribie

    United Kingdom
    4 Posts

    Posted - 05 mars 2006 :  19:28:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
    InstantFix sounds like a useful facility for SIRFIII users, but not if we can't get hold of it!

    Any hints on how to access the download/update system (I have a Mio A201)?
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    gpspassion

    93888 Posts

    Posted - 05 mars 2006 :  19:31:26  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    Yes, very useful, unfortunately it doesn't look like there will be an upgrade path at this point...The first IF capable unit should be the Mio A701.

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    gpspassion

    93888 Posts

    Posted - 10 mars 2006 :  23:55:34  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    First message updated with some new information about "SIF".

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    Adams

    Poland
    5 Posts

    Posted - 11 mars 2006 :  02:12:34  Show Profile  Visit Adams's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    And what about this InstantFix one...? :-)
    http://www.xaiox.com/instantfix.htm


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    gpspassion

    93888 Posts

    Posted - 11 mars 2006 :  02:33:01  Show Profile  Visit gpspassion's Homepage  Reply with Quote
    hum...totally unrelated of course, no AGPS there, wonder if they took the name before or after though ;-)

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