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 SPVC500 / 4.54 : highway in switzerland
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GrandSapin1673

12 Posts

Posted - 06 sept. 2005 :  17:47:42  Show Profile
Hello,
I would like to give a feedback on the way Mapopolis deal on Swiss Highway.
There are no information on the direction to follow choosing a slip road between 2 highways.
I recently did a trip from south of Fribourg to a suburb of Zurich. After entering the Highway, the next point was exit at xxx in 212 kilometers.
In between, I have to
1) Pass through Bern in which 3 or 4 "Exchanger" allow to go in other direction. (easy to follow Zurich on signs in thi scase)
2) Cross a few main highway for Basel and Lucerne (still easy in my specific case, but not evident for a less known city
3) Arrive in Zurich where suddenly I get on a 6-7 lane with 3 different posibilities, no clue from soft and many chances to get lost in one of the slip road around the town.
Eric

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AllanHvass

Denmark
396 Posts

Posted - 06 sept. 2005 :  22:13:01  Show Profile
Hi Eric,

I have reported this bug more than a year ago offline to Mapopolis support, but had no luck in them acknowledging it, because no one else has reported it. I've always found that strange, since it should annoy a LOT of people. Basically, in Denmark it will practically NEVER tell you whether to take the left or right fork in a highway split, if highway names are carried forward from the one you're on to the new highways. Example: If E47 / E55 splits into E47 going left and E55 going right, it won't tell you which fork to take in most cases. I've never found the exact logic behind the errors, but had started to expect that the issue was tied to the Danish maps. Appearently not!

A friend of mine who saw the behavior one day stated that he would consider the bug life dangerous because it makes you unsure what direction to take while on the highway, and he would NEVER invest in routing software with that type of bug. I tend to agree.

To me, this is the single biggest bug in Mapopolis currently.

I wonder why no one else has ever reported this?

Best regards
Allan Hvass

Using SmartPhone QTek 8020, 512MB miniSD, BlueTooth enabled Holux GM-210, Mapopolis, Parrot BT car kit
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Dr_StrangeTrick

United Kingdom
379 Posts

Posted - 07 sept. 2005 :  07:38:24  Show Profile
Hi all, same here although not quite as bad.

When travelling down the M42 or the M1 to join the M25 (Orbital motorway that goes round London in both directions) as I approach the junction it Mapopolis will say "in 300 feet take exit to M25" but when you get to the exit you have two choices left or right. Which one arrrgh!!! and you can bet your life if you get it wrong you will end up with an extra 20 mile round trip to bring you back to where you was.

The only way around this is to make the navigation pane large size so I can read all of the remaining lines something like 'take exit ??? towards Gatwick' then check the overhead signs to see which lane takes you towards Gatwick. The trouble is if you cant do this at the speed of light you are too far down the wrong lane and you are stuck or you will have to cut across the other traffic which is quite dangerous.

Again I have not mentioned this before as I always believed that this was due to map data but now that you guys have mentioned this I thought I had better add my experience.

On the few occasions I have used TomTom on similar routes it also says "take the exit" with no other information but as soon as it detects that you are on the exit it says "keep left" or "Keep right" or "Straight ahead" perhaps we could have something like this

Orange C550, TomTom BT GPS
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JakeRich

USA
584 Posts

Posted - 01 oct. 2005 :  01:59:34  Show Profile
Allan, to pick up the discussion from the other thread, I have seen and heard the directions say "Keep left" and "keep right" at all sorts of merge/split intersections. Basically, if the map database has a boundary of some sort, Mapopolis announces it. An example of this is that when a highway becomes divided instead of a single pavement, Mapopolis announces (in the US) to keep right, then again when the divided highway merges into a single pavement again, it again announces keep right. Those are both annoying and unnecessary. I'm not changing highways, there are no turns, it's just dividing and joining.

On the other hand, when I plan from VA to NJ and let it use the I-95 corridor then it does not announce the I-495/I-70 split in Maryland. But it does clearly show that the planned route is to take the right fork on the map display, whcih scrolls with my movement. Keep it zoomed out some and a quick glance at the map will show you where you want to go.
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AllanHvass

Denmark
396 Posts

Posted - 01 oct. 2005 :  16:15:12  Show Profile
OK, here's a concrete example. You're making a route from "Lyng Vej 22" to "Vestre Ring Vej 22". Mapopolis generates the following instructions (remember each and only each route step corresponds to an active navigation instruction during driving):

(1) Start out by turning Left onto LYNG VEJ going East. Go East .1 km.
(2) Enter roundabout and take Second Exit onto Ramp to E20/E47/KØGE BUGT MOTORVEJEN/E55. Go West 12.0 km.
(3) Take EXIT 34/TO BJÆVERSKOV. Go West .5 km.

(4) Turn Right onto VESTRE RING VEJ. Go North .1 km.
(5) 22 Vestre Ring Vej is on Left side of VESTRE RING VEJ.

I've highlighted steps 2 and 3 as the most important ones. This route is displayed in MapPoint as the screenshot below. I'm using AutoRoute rather than Mapopolis for this, as the resolution is higher, but it's the same route, and there's no issues with the route calculation, so that's not important here.



Now I generate a second route with the same start point, but destination is "Slimminge Vej 5". The new route instructions are:

(1) Start out by turning Left onto LYNG VEJ going East. Go East .1 km.
(2) Enter roundabout and take Second Exit onto Ramp to E20/E47/KØGE BUGT MOTORVEJEN/E55. Go SouthWest 12.9 km.
(3) Take EXIT 34/TO HERFØLGE. Go South .5 km.

(4) Turn Right onto SLIMMINGE VEJ. Go West .2 km.
(5) Slimminge Vej 5 is on Left side of SLIMMINGE VEJ.

Again highlighting steps 2 and 3. You will notice that steps 2 and 3 seems identical, i.e. you enter the same road in step 2 and take the same exit in step 3 and nothing in between has sent you in different directions. However, there's also a few differences, the distance in step 2 is slightly different, and the exit is name different. How can that be? Well, let's look at the route on a map...



It's a completely different route! The two destinations are more than 20 km. apart. They separate at the highway split shortly after entering the highway. And if you followed these instructions en route, you would have no information about which split to take...

I even have an in-car photo of this highway split below. It's taken at a little too big difference for the signs to be legible, but hey! I was doing 110km/h, so I wasn't really able to spend too much time on it. However, you will notice that the two left lanes are for E47/E55, while the two right ones (the middle one going in both directions) are for E20.



Obviously (to me!) the routing software should tell which direction to take in such a case. A friend of mine that uses TomTom for his driving, observed this actual case and called it life dangerous. His software will call these splits correctly every time. I'm aware of the ability to zoom out and try to see what direction the highlighted route is taking, but that is not how we should navigate on the highway. We should be told and displayed of any direction changes we must make.

I should stress, that this is not a exceptional case for routing with Mapopolis in Denmark. This is the norm. And it doesn't just happen when highway split off in two directions, it also happens where there's a more obvious bend off to the right of the highway, even if it involves an exit ramp to get onto the new highway. It will practically NEVER inform you whether to stay on the highway or take the bend off or exit, if the target highway has a name that is contained in your current highway, i.e. as E20/E47/E55 before the split above and E20 and E47/E55 after the split. And it's the case also whether you need to continue straight or take the bend / exit.

So while this may be related to the pruning of "Continue" instructions in some cases, in other cases this is NOT the problem. It's simply not giving you instructions, even if you should NOT continue.

I have a strong suspicion that this is related to highway names, as I've never seen it other cases, and highways are the ones that most often use multiple names before a split and continue those names on both legs after a split.

Anyone who would not call this a serious bug?

Best regards
Allan Hvass

Using SmartPhone QTek 8020, 512MB miniSD, BlueTooth enabled Holux GM-210, Mapopolis, Parrot BT car kit

Edited by - AllanHvass on 01 oct. 2005 16:16:36
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JakeRich

USA
584 Posts

Posted - 01 oct. 2005 :  18:50:07  Show Profile
I'm confused. The steps 2 and 3 ARE different in your examples. On the first route it says:
(2) Enter roundabout and take Second Exit onto Ramp to E20/E47/KØGE BUGT MOTORVEJEN/E55. Go West 12.0 km.

On the second route it says:
(2) Enter roundabout and take Second Exit onto Ramp to E20/E47/KØGE BUGT MOTORVEJEN/E55. Go SouthWest 12.9 km.

That's a difference of .9 km.

On step 3 route 1 says:
(3) Take EXIT 34/TO BJÆVERSKOV. Go West .5 km.

On Route 2 that same direction is:
(3) Take EXIT 34/TO HERFØLGE. Go South .5 km.

Those are different, too. One says BJÆVERSKOV the other HERFØLGE. One says West the other South.

Looks to me like it's working. The system is showing you which exit to take, what town to go toward and the general direction of that road.

Is the bug that it doesn't speak at next split in the road, where the three lanes actually separate? If so, that is strange because it does that in my area. Perhaps the Danish map database has a flaw?

Edited by - JakeRich on 01 oct. 2005 18:57:25
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AllanHvass

Denmark
396 Posts

Posted - 01 oct. 2005 :  19:54:03  Show Profile
Yes, there ARE differences in the texts. But remember, when you get directions while driving, it does NOT say go WEST 12.0km (not that you could use that for anything anyway). It only tells you when to make a direction change, and the two list of five steps contain exactly the same direction change information, and most importantly, there nothing between step 2 (which basically says get on the highway) and step 3 (which basically says leave the highway at exit 34). But despite no information in between those two steps, you're supposed to end up at two different exits, the bigger maps shows you should have gone two completely different ways at the highway split.

So yes, the problem is, like I've tried in several different ways to make clear, that Mapopolis DOES NOT make any indication what leg to take at the highway split. And this is not just for highway splits but also for true exits onto ramps, if it's still a continuation of one of the road numbers you're already on.

Best regards
Allan Hvass

Using SmartPhone QTek 8020, 512MB miniSD, BlueTooth enabled Holux GM-210, Mapopolis, Parrot BT car kit
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JakeRich

USA
584 Posts

Posted - 01 oct. 2005 :  22:24:07  Show Profile
In the US Exit 34 would be labeled 34A for one and 34B for the other, so the Mapopolis sees them as separate exits. If your highways don't do that, then Mapopolis is apparently seeing both choices as the same exit, and it's done what it needs to do--directed you to the one exit. TomTom uses TeleAtlas maps and they may have the exits plotted differently. This could be a thorny issue for Mapopolis.
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SPVito

Denmark
9 Posts

Posted - 02 oct. 2005 :  00:15:38  Show Profile
Hello there!

I would like to report, that I have been experiencing the same thing.

Driving to from Copenhagen to Kolding, there is a highway split shortly after the Lillebælts-bridge, where E20 splits into E45 going north to Århus, and E20 going west towards Kolding.

I had the rute planed in Mapopolis, but there was no notice about this split from the program....it would have been nice with a voice saying...keep left, or something like that.
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AllanHvass

Denmark
396 Posts

Posted - 02 oct. 2005 :  08:53:45  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by JakeRich

In the US Exit 34 would be labeled 34A for one and 34B for the other, so the Mapopolis sees them as separate exits. If your highways don't do that, then Mapopolis is apparently seeing both choices as the same exit, and it's done what it needs to do--directed you to the one exit. TomTom uses TeleAtlas maps and they may have the exits plotted differently. This could be a thorny issue for Mapopolis.



Jake, please PLEASE see my detailed description. It's NOT the same exit 34, they're 20 km. apart on two different highways. It was intentional that I just plotted two different routes that happens to use the same exit number on two different highways. It's the exact way exits are numbered in the U.S., you will also have many exit 34s on the highways in the U.S., potentially one on each highway.

It should be really really simple. You're driving down a highway, you come to a split, you can take two directions, which one should you take? This is exactly what the routing software is designed to tell you, but it don't on highways in Denmark, and judging from some of the other replies on this thread also not in Switzerland, U.K. and Canada in some cases. It's not about the map provider, if you want to check, AutoRoute - which also uses NavTeq data, is giving correct instructions for all such highway splits. Could we please acknowledge this as a bug and move on to how to fix it?

Best regards
Allan Hvass

Using SmartPhone QTek 8020, 512MB miniSD, BlueTooth enabled Holux GM-210, Mapopolis, Parrot BT car kit
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SPVito

Denmark
9 Posts

Posted - 02 oct. 2005 :  15:32:09  Show Profile
I agree with Allan, that this is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

Approaching a highway-split at high speed and getting confused/uncertain about which direction to take...having to look down for details on the telephone-screen - that could be a safety/security-issue.

Best regards;
Erik
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JakeRich

USA
584 Posts

Posted - 02 oct. 2005 :  19:36:17  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by AllanHvass

quote:
Originally posted by JakeRich

In the US Exit 34 would be labeled 34A for one and 34B for the other, so the Mapopolis sees them as separate exits. If your highways don't do that, then Mapopolis is apparently seeing both choices as the same exit, and it's done what it needs to do--directed you to the one exit. TomTom uses TeleAtlas maps and they may have the exits plotted differently. This could be a thorny issue for Mapopolis.



Jake, please PLEASE see my detailed description. It's NOT the same exit 34, they're 20 km. apart on two different highways. It was intentional that I just plotted two different routes that happens to use the same exit number on two different highways. It's the exact way exits are numbered in the U.S., you will also have many exit 34s on the highways in the U.S., potentially one on each highway.

It should be really really simple. You're driving down a highway, you come to a split, you can take two directions, which one should you take? This is exactly what the routing software is designed to tell you, but it don't on highways in Denmark, and judging from some of the other replies on this thread also not in Switzerland, U.K. and Canada in some cases. It's not about the map provider, if you want to check, AutoRoute - which also uses NavTeq data, is giving correct instructions for all such highway splits. Could we please acknowledge this as a bug and move on to how to fix it?

Best regards
Allan Hvass

Using SmartPhone QTek 8020, 512MB miniSD, BlueTooth enabled Holux GM-210, Mapopolis, Parrot BT car kit

Allan I did read your detailed description. I'm going to try better to explain what I was saying. Your directions referred to the road to BJÆVERSKOV and the road to HERFØLGE as both being Exit 34 off of the combined E20/E47. From those directions it would appear that Mapopolis assumes that going to BJÆVERSKOV your are on E20 an going to HERFØLGE you are on E47. According to the Mapopolis directions, it would appear that those two roads (E20 and E47) separate from each other .9km down that exit road. In the US one of those exits would be called Exit 34A, the other Exit 34B. For example, the exit to BJÆVERSKOV might be 34A and the exit for HERFØLGE would be 34B. I do understand that the exits aren't 20 km apart, the two towns are 20 km apart. The exits are typically close together. In the US exits are numbered by the mileposts and then lettered when in the same mile. So coming from milepost 34, Exit 34A would be the first one in mile 34 and 34B the second, 34C the third, etc, until you get to milepost 35. So, what I am trying to say is that in the US the two signs would have different names, Mapopolis would know and give separate directions. I will say that I have seen various splits and merges in highways that Mapopolis didn't announce, but that's ok with me. If I'm on I-95 for 60 miles, I don't need every split to be announced, I know that I stay with I-95 until Mapopolis says otherwise. I can read the signs just fine, even at high speed. If I'm approaching a split or intersection and Mapopolis is silent, I stick with what I was on. If I hear Mapopolis speak, I know I need to leave the road I'm on for something else. Extra prompts, like "continue," where I don't need to turn are the annoying kinds of thing that Mapopolis used to have and finally got rid of.

I have tried other systems that have the "continue" and all the extra prompts and I have removed them from my PPC because of all the extra noise. What I would like Mapopolis to do that it does not do is to say, after I complete a directed turn, "Continue on I-95 for 45 miles." That announcement will tell me to just keep going, following signs, on that same highway, taking I-95 at every split, for 45 miles. In your example, when I go through turn 2, and am on E20/E47, it should say "Continue xx km on E 47 to HERFØLGE," or "Continue xx km on E20 for BJÆVERSKOV," for example. I then follow the signs for E47 or E20, wherever it goes, ignoring any other roads.
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AllanHvass

Denmark
396 Posts

Posted - 02 oct. 2005 :  20:06:12  Show Profile
Jake - you're NOT looking at the maps I made screen shots of. The exits ARE 20 km. apart - yes really! They are not .9 km. apart, and the cities are not 20 km. apart. The EXITS are 20 km. apart. Please please look at the two map shots. The two route starts from the same origin, but they go in different directions at the highway split, and continue in different directions for the next 12 km. FOrget about the exits, forget they even got the same number, apparently that added more confusion that clarity.

The basic problem is this: You start at point A. You get to a highway split. No matter whether your destination requires you take the left or right leg, Mapopolis doesn't tell you. EVEN if one of them was a "continue" (that you don't want to hear), clearly the other leg can't be a "continue" also. At LEAST one of them should have a direction instruction, either bear left or bear right. In reality, neither of the legs are a natural continue, as both of them are a continuation of one of the road numbers for the highway you're currently on. AND THAT IS A BUG IN MY BOOK. You can't have a navigation system, that given two directions to take, doesn't give you instructions for EITHER of them.

Someone - please help me explain this.

Best regards
Allan Hvass

Using SmartPhone QTek 8020, 512MB miniSD, BlueTooth enabled Holux GM-210, Mapopolis, Parrot BT car kit
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M Duff

Canada
205 Posts

Posted - 02 oct. 2005 :  20:56:26  Show Profile
You guys are both right but you are saying different things.

You provided too much information Allan..... and few of us speak Danish.
The key to understanding what you are saying in your post containing the directions is to ignore all the steps but step 2.

You are leaving the same roundabout at the second exit in both cases and entering the same highway which ultimately leads to both destinations but the only information you are given is: You must travel West for 12. km to the Bjaeverskov exit OR you must travel South West for 12.9 km to the Herfloge exit. After you exit from the roundabout, on the second route, you are NOT told where/when/ to take an exit ramp to get to E47 and ultimately the Herfloge exit. You are also not told, on the first route, to remain on E20 to get to get to the Bjaerverskov exit.

Presumably the overhead sign in the photo which we cannot make out, does show you which lane to be in (if you knew which road you should be taking), but Mapopolis does not contain and recite this instruction.

Does this state your problem accurately?

Toshiba e805 - Spb Pocket Plus2 - Holux GM270 - Franson GPS Gate - Mapopolis V4.6 final 1 , NC maps & Verbosity Optns - MS S&T 2004 - Memory-Map Navigator w/E-Topo maps
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AllanHvass

Denmark
396 Posts

Posted - 02 oct. 2005 :  21:37:56  Show Profile
Hi M Duff,

Fairly close. The most important difference is, there is NO exit to take to get to E47. The highway you're on is E20/E47 before the split, and E20 to the left and E47 to the right after the split. It goes DIRECTLY from one to the other, without any exits, ramps, or anything else. Going left or right is equally prioritized, none of them is bending off from the other, it's a truly symmetric split in this case.

I should add however, that that's not the root of the problem. I have many other examples, where one highway IS reached by taking a ramp from the current highway, and even in those cases Mapopolis doesn't give instructions to take the ramp. This happens, if the new highway continues as one of the road numbers of the current highway.

Thanks for helpin me clarify this.

Best regards
Allan Hvass

Using SmartPhone QTek 8020, 512MB miniSD, BlueTooth enabled Holux GM-210, Mapopolis, Parrot BT car kit
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JakeRich

USA
584 Posts

Posted - 02 oct. 2005 :  23:26:36  Show Profile
M Duff, I know everybody thinks I dumb as a box of rocks, but that explanation is exactly what I got from Allan's original post. You guys just go ahead without me. I give up.
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